reactionary crap

[rone]

I've been irked all day by thinking about how much of human progress has come out of a complete and opposite reaction against another movement or opinion in the fields of art, science, and politics.  The bloody pendulum swings from end to end and it all seems like a ridiculous waste of energy.  Hey, that's fine if you're 19, because at that age, energy is the only thing you aren't short on.  But for a race that's several millennia old, it seems a tad immature.  We too easily fall into black-and-white perception, either clinging to the old ways or utterly shunning them.

I know that sometimes it's necessary to completely step away from how things are done now to find a new direction.  But it should be a last resort.  I wonder if these childish 180° turns are just a subconscious panicky attempt to save face.

Comments

[tarian.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting take on things. I've wondered occasionally whether it was actually possible to be completely reactionary; so much of one's thinking is informed by current opinion that what looks like opposition is often a fairly minor tweak. I'd say that more of the time, progress is halted by a fundamental unwillingness to take a *large* enough step, rather than the opposite.

But then I'm thinking science, not politics, so you might be on another page entirely.

[zadcat.livejournal.com]

Not to get too Freudian here, but mightn't it be partly each generation's rejection of its parents' values? "This is not your father's [noun]" etc.

[enleve.livejournal.com]

I am reminded of this quote:

"The world always makes the assumption that the exposure of an error is identical with the discovery of the truth -- that error and truth are simply opposite. They are nothing of the sort. What the world turns to, when it has been cured of one error, is usually simply another error, and maybe one worse than the first one." - H.L. Mencken

[merde.livejournal.com]

outstanding.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

We need a new H. L. Mencken. I love Jon Stewart, but he's no H. L. Mencken.

[frosch.livejournal.com]

I know enough about science to know I don't know a helluva lot, and I'm trying to forget everything I ever knew about art, but I can share with you a couple of observations about our politics.

I, who am barely old enough to remember Watergate, and who just finally gained a full appreciation of the atrociousness of Nixon's presidency within the last year, am at the median voter age (46). No one significantly younger than me was old enough to really be paying attention the last time we had such a monumental scale of executive upfucking going on, and shockingly few of those who can remember will have any real understanding of what happened.

This means that more than half the electorate has no memory of the mistakes of the past.

Nonetheless, these people, whose opinions and analyses are so easily manipulated by political hypemasters, are still empowered with what is almost a direct franchise for the most powerful man on earth, the guards against mob rule (electoral college, bicameral legislature w/indirectly elected upper house) having long ago been emasculated in the idolatry of democracy.

[sandollar17.livejournal.com]

Maybe life is cyclical, existence is cyclical, and that's just the way it's always going to be. The details change, but massive human nature will not. We want something to whole-heartedly cling to because we're afraid, and when one belief appears faulty, we fly to the next one.

But some don't. And those who don't cling spend a grand chunk of time asking the others what they think they're holding onto. Yet it's as if they never even hear the question.

Progress is Our Most Important Product

[venividi.livejournal.com]

It's not really that way. I recommend "Shock of the New". What appears to be 180 degree turns is just power swinging between groups with alternate points of view, or, as in science, simplified history making change look more dramatic in retrospect than it was in action.

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

There seems to be one other thing I attach to this that really bugs me to death and that's the fact that people seem to have become sheeple, mindless repeaters of some old or new mantra and don't bother to show any intellectual curiosity or a bit of mental work prior to making decisions. All I'm asking is people make an _informed_ decision first, then I have no problem giving their ideas equal time even if those views are directly opposite to my own.
I realize that could sound arrogant but that's not the case.
I find myself dismissing the prior category entirely these days as not worthy of wasting my time on because by the time I've explained the basics to them I've lost interest, mainly because of their mental laziness and the desire to be spoon fed. The information is out there and I can't understand why so many are so lazy in critical thinking these days.
Why should I have to spoon feed the basics?
The truth is that there is always room for new but also good reasons for the some of the old and the thoughtful blending of both is far more productive.
Crap. I sound like my grandparents. Get offa my lawn!

[paracelsvs.livejournal.com]

Nope, sorry, that's still extremely arrogant. Also, ignorant:

The information is out there and I can't understand why so many are so lazy in critical thinking these days.

Maybe you should try to find that out, before you make any more broad generalizations about "sheeple". Maybe you should not attack others for not sharing your point of view when you make no effort to understand theirs.

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

If I've given you the idea I don't then I did a pretty poor job of explaining myself, not uncommon for me sometimes. I don't attack people for not sharing the same point of view at all. I call the people who don't do enough homework to make an informed decision "sheeple".
The ones who have derived their opinions without taking the time to have looked at both viewpoints before forming that particular opinion.
Those who express opinions based on "that's the way it's always been done" as well as those who believe "it's the new fad, everyone else says it, therefore it must be good." Both are just as harmful and non-productive and in my opinion, both types are exhibiting very poor critical thinking skills.

Or put yet another way: I'm all ears in the viewpoints of others who don't share my own, so long as they've made an honest effort in choosing their viewpoints from a standpoint of informing themselves. My definition of sheeple are those who listen to about 5 minutes of CNN Headline News and form an instant opinion, think CSPAN as an info-mercial for spandex exercise-wear. It seems to me there's an awful lot more of that these days than there used to be; snap decisions and opinions on important issues with little time or effort spend searching for very basic information first.

I hope I've managed to explain my viewpoint a bit better this time around, anyway.
?

[paracelsvs.livejournal.com]

No, I got that from the start. And I still say that all you're doing is placing yourself above the Ignorant Masses, while making no effort to understand the feelings and opinions of those huge unspecified groups of people you deride. They are all real people, who have real thoughts and values that don't coincide with your own. Many of them care deeply about issues you don't give a second thought, and they may very well think you ignorant for it.

I'd go so far as to claim that these masses of "sheeple" are mostly a construct of your (and your peers') imagination, to give you someone to feel superior to.

I have many views that aren't shared by large groups. I enjoy intellectual discussion about them. Many others don't care. Many others have opinions I despise, and I dislike them for it. But I don't look down on people for not caring about things I care about. And I don't think holding an opinion makes me better than someone who doesn't. And I do my best to always remember that people are individuals, and not generalizations over huge groups.

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

No, I got that from the start. And I still say that all you're doing is placing yourself above the Ignorant Masses, while making no effort to understand the feelings and opinions of those huge unspecified groups of people you deride. They are all real people, who have real thoughts and values that don't coincide with your own. Many of them care deeply about issues you don't give a second thought, and they may very well think you ignorant for it."

They're allowed to, of course. And it really is okay with me if they do if they fall in the category of those I'm thinking of.
"I'd go so far as to claim that these masses of "sheeple" are mostly a construct of your (and your peers') imagination, to give you someone to feel superior to."
Well, superiority isn’t the word I’d personally choose. For example, the people who were heard to make comments about those who didn’t evacuate during the recent hurricanes as “stupid” and as such, undeserving of sympathy. They made those statements without attempting to find out that there may have been and were good reasons for those folks that didn’t leave. But rather than taking a moment to practice a bit of empathy, gather a few facts, or even to just ask themselves *why* before making that decision they instead made a snap, ill informed opinion that those people were stupid for staying, or in some cases stupid for even living there in the first place.
My own family members in other areas were some of the ones who made just that type of statement so it isn’t my imagination. Those decisions were made based on what little was watched on CNN, as did many others.
If that does indeed count as a feeling of superiority, that I feel they haven’t made the effort to make informed decisions and judgements then I guess one can come to that conclusion, yes. I personally would call it irritation, frustration or even disgust rather than superiority though.
(And I realize Rone was talking more about politics, art and such however I applied that to a lot of topics I feel fall under the same category, such as this one.)

I have many views that aren't shared by large groups. I enjoy intellectual discussion about them. Many others don't care. Many others have opinions I despise, and I dislike them for it. But I don't look down on people for not caring about things I care about. And I don't think holding an opinion makes me better than someone who doesn't. And I do my best to always remember that people are individuals, and not generalizations over huge groups.

Sure, and that's admirable. But I’m having a hard time using Rone’s personal journal for this as I feel like I’m high-jacking it for personal reasons so I’ll just thank you for the conversation and move on. I did rather enjoy it though, sincerely. Thank you.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

Y'all have my permission to say what you wish here.

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Rone. You're a gracious host. :)

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

I call the people who don't do enough homework to make an informed decision "sheeple".

Making an informed decision these days requires a lot of homework. Just for our stupid "special election" last November, which was only a few propositions, to make an "informed decision" required poring over a massive amount of literature, most of it filled with nasty legalese.

What's more important is to be flexible. Keep your eyes and ears open and adjust.

[frosch.livejournal.com]

Making an informed decision these days requires a lot of homework.

This is why the rest of the civilized world, or at least most of it, has professional informed-decision-makers.

They're called "Members of Parliament".

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

"have become sheeple"

There's nothing new about sheeple. And the concept of sheeple is just a surface illusion.

I don't think people are lazy in critical thinking; they've just never learned how to do it. Kinda like my studying during my college years.

I don't want to dismiss any group of people. That sort of behavior leads to stupid "red state/blue state" polarization wars.

[dpk.livejournal.com]

A friend of mine has been taking college courses to complete a degree, and one of the classes he took was some philosophy course in logic. The study materials were all Flash-based multiple-choice questions about how to break down and interpret sentences and situations logically. It looked interesting and unfortunately unfamiliar.

Such "critical thinking" material isn't taught in the standard k-12 education most people receive -- at least, I know I never went through a course like that, and I can assume most haven't if this is taught as a 200-level class in college.

I'm sure this discrepency will be caught while we push for more standardized testing throughout the grades, though. We can all rest assured of that!

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

Such "critical thinking" material isn't taught in the standard k-12 education most people receive

I wish it were. I don't remember ever being formally taught this either it was always just "there", something I'd been taught from an early age I guess and as such, that's the way we raised our kids so it's something they've always grown up with too. It's served them very well in dealing with just day to day problems in too many situations to mention.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Believe it or not, I actually had a brief course unit on that in the fifth or sixth grade. The teacher was sort of a free spirit, and it was the (late) Seventies. But there was a text and everything, about such things as what propaganda was, detecting emotionally loaded statements, name-calling, etc.

I remember hearing that attempts to introduce "critical thinking" curricula in some districts were highly controversial, because parents thought that evil secular humanistic moral relativism was being spread.

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

That was a memory trigger. Roughly the same time frame in N.California
in the 4th or 5th grade we were shown a black and white photograph with a typical city street scene. We were asked to make observations and answer several questions such as the time of year it was. The discussion afterwards is still very clear. The time of year was determined by the trees, what people were wearing and observing the exhaust coming from the cars.

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

I've been reading a lot of "everybody is stupid except me" rants lately, and it's really wearing on my brain. Most recently, someone who proved that his fellow Americans are all dumb and evil by listing every atrocity of the Bush administration followed by the phrase "and there was not a peep of protest", because apparently he was the only person who ever protested the Bush administration.

Self-described ubermenschen are usually just assholes.

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

Upon further reflection, I shouldn't have used the word "sheeple" as it conjures up a distinct classification which very naturally sets people's teeth on edge.
I also realize that my current frustration levels have built up in a great many areas lately that requires that I do a lot of suppressing on a daily basis in unprecedented levels within the past four months.
I think I'm just full and felt like and needed to vent.
I'd hate to think I'm an asshole, NTTAWWT!

[mmcirvin.livejournal.com]

Yeah, venting can be a good catharsis regardless of its precise logical validity. Speaking personally, I have a tendency to take other people's venting more literally than I usually should, which is why you don't usually see me doing it in public fora (instead, samantha2074 has to listen to me venting late at night). But sometimes it happens.

[twillis.livejournal.com]

I'd hate to think I'm an asshole, NTTAWWT!

Finally! A point where we differ.

[asienieizi.livejournal.com]

"But today is opposite day, right?"

[paracelsvs.livejournal.com]

We need some sort of online resource for deconstructing obnoxious personality types, so that just like when somebody posts a trite urban legend, you can make a snippy reply with just a snopes.com link, you could do the same when somebody makes a rant about how everybody is stupid, or plays the HAW HAW guy, or whatever.

There should be an entry for people who make long, unparseable sentences with lots of commas, and are too lazy to fix them. Also one for self-deprecating self-referential assholes.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

As long as you use your real name (http://news.com.com/2102-1028_3-6022491.html?tag=st.util.print).

[twillis.livejournal.com]

Hey, just because I'm an asshole doesn't mean that everyone except me ISN'T stupid, you know, Mr. Logic Critical-Thinking Guy So-Called.

red state/blue state polarization wars

[vardissakheli.livejournal.com]

What worries me most about this "deep divide" the media have lately "discovered" in our voting patterns is not the extremes of polarization at all. It's the extreme amplification of very small differences, and the fact that so many states' votes, and the overall popular vote, and the composition of both house of Congress, come so close to 50/50 all the time. The outcome isn't controlled by the extremists or even the moderate partisans. As the rhetoric becomes more extreme and the moderates on either side become more firmly polarized, control passes more and more to the small remaining minority of sheeple who are swayed by whose hair is better at a charity luncheon or who talks tougher against the villains of the current crisis. If Abramoff doesn't manage to bring the whole house tumbling down, eventually we'll reach the point where we're all lined up a hundred million on a side, with the tug-of-war decided by one feeble-minded soul standing in the mud who reaches up and tweaks the rope one way or the other.

[bungo.livejournal.com]

I should think about this more, but for now I just have
optimal controls tend to be bang-bang
stuck in my head. Maybe there is a reason.

[frosch.livejournal.com]

you mean beyond the general solution to the second-order linear differential equation?

[bungo.livejournal.com]

Well, I've forgotten a theorem, obviously. Doesn't it generalise beyond (say) weak nonlinearities?

[joepro.livejournal.com]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I find it ironic that an essay on the decay of human progress is followed by "current music - da doo doo doo da da da da..."

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

Yes, it was well suited.