irony: it's what's for dinner

[rone]

DEAD SEA RESORT, Jordan (CNN) -- The Arab world should be showing "a higher level of outrage" over the death of an American businessman whose beheading was posted on an Islamist Web site last week, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said Sunday.

When people say there isn't enough outrage over what's happening in Iraq... that's not what they meant.

(forgot to add the link to the article)

Comments

[therobbergirl.livejournal.com]

When people say there isn't enough outrage over what's happening in Iraq... that's not what they meant.

I'm not sure it isn't. We're outraged over prisoner abuse and torture, yet there is no corresponding outrage for not just the highly-publicized sawing off of Berg's head, but the multitudes of other equally horrific tortures and killings coming from that part of the Muslim world.

When we see the photos of Iraqi prisoner torture, we became outraged and called for heads to roll, so to speak. Our leaders may have let us down by ignoring the reports when they first found out (assuming that they didn't order to acts in the first place), but when we the citizenry found out, we got very upset and continue to do so.

When masked men sawed off Berg's head, the populace cheered. When we saw still photos of Iraqi prisoner torture, we became incensed. That's Powell's point.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

I found the four deaths in Fallujah much more outrageous and disturbing than this one, because it was a deranged mob. This was clearly a staged publicity stunt done by some masked cowards.

I'm also not sure what more outrage from the Arab nations would accomplish.

[merde.livejournal.com]

it would be the least they could do to demonstrate their boundless gratitude at the multitude of improvements we've made to Iraq and Afghanistan so far.

*cough*

[therobbergirl.livejournal.com]

Especially when it comes to Afghanistan, I don't get where the sarcasm comes from. I know things are still not good in Afghanistan, but it perplexes me how so many people cannot see that things are better. I mean, is it worth nothing that a woman is allowed to read now? Is it worth nothing that the government does not beat her up for being outside? I acknowledge the problems that remain, including things like private citizens attempting to enforce the Taliban codes upon women, but is there truly nothing worthwhile?

It seems that political polarization requires one set of opinion to blast everything we do as hideous and the other set of opinion to hold everything we do as right and proper. Naturally, each set fancies itself to be well-read and far superior.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

In certain places, women are allowed to read and are not beaten up. In most of Afghanistan, things are just as bleak as they were before.

[therobbergirl.livejournal.com]

It's still an accomplishment and worthy of taking note. It's an enormous accomplishment to get rid of institutionalized codes such as those of the Taliban.

For example, look at racism in the US. Compare life in the 1950s to life now. In the 1960s, when institutionalized changes began happening rapidly and far-reachingly (good God, the terms I quasi-invent), life improved in some places, but in most places, life was just as bleak as before.

But now, things are much better. We still have places where bleakness prevails, but in most places, racism is something people have to mutte under their breath and pull down the shades in their houses to talk about. The instituionalized racism is mostly gone.

By the same token, it's a huge accomplishment that even in a few places, women can read and stand outside without agents of the government beating her up. That she risks beatings from private citizens remains a problem, but on the scale of progress, it's a step.

[ikkyu2.livejournal.com]

Nonsense. The trade in raw opium and processed heroin has never been stronger in Afghanistan than it is now. In exchange for about $90 million American, the Taliban had used their notoriously effective enforcement methods to pretty well eliminate the Afghan poppy program, because they felt it was immoral and because the US was paying them to do it.

Now, with the advent of the U.S. intervention, hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of heroin per year springs again from the long-dormant poppy fields.

Free enterprise - it's the American way!

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

I was gonna bring that up, yeah. Good thing we have the War on Drugs!

[therobbergirl.livejournal.com]

I'm also not sure what more outrage from the Arab nations would accomplish.

I don't think it would accomplish anything.

I do think, though, that it would indicate the sort of cultural change that heralds other improvements. Outrage over sawing off Berg's head would indicate a realization of the humanity of others. I think it's good that Americans and others are shocked by the torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners. A culture that is shocked by photos of its naked prisoners in a stack is not a culture that videotapes a five-minute statement culminating in a beheading that is accompanied by a man's screams and other men's shouts to Allah.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

Well, it would definitely indicate such a change, but asking for outrage isn't going to generate any (at least, not any genuine outrage), so it all seems an exercise in pointless fingershaking (i can see us making a private statement about our disappointment at the lack of condemnation, but making it a public statement just looks bad). There isn't any outrage; thus, there aren't any cultural changes coming. As to why... well, that's a whole `nuther argument.

In addition, there's a big gulf between random masked assholes who might be tied to Al Qaida hacking a guy's head off and officially sanctioned barbarism by a nation's military.

[therobbergirl.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree about the outrage and value of asking for it in a public statement.

there's a big gulf between random masked assholes who might be tied to Al Qaida hacking a guy's head off and officially sanctioned barbarism by a nation's military.

Yeah, it's not a great analogy, but it was the most topical one I could thin of. And as far it goes, I believe it works -- I'm talking about the outrage of the population rather than the outrage of politicians and heads of state.

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

I do hope that things improve culturally over there. It's probably an oversimplification, but it's only been 1381 (tropical, not lunar) years of Islam, and Christian life was certainly no party back in 1381 AD. I hope things become more progressive within the next century or two (i am, alas, not being sarcastic).

[therobbergirl.livejournal.com]

I think you're right. I see parallels between the two cultures. The concern I have is that Christian culture of the Middle Ages could not reach as far around the globe as equivalent cultures can today. Its firepower and influence was restricted by its weak tech.

I don't remember my history well enough to recall the catalyst for the Renaissance, but I do remember when I was in school having the impression that time was a required factor. Measuring that time in centuries is appropriate.

Wow!

[skipernicus.livejournal.com]

Wow, is he ever out of touch with reality!