rone | where do i fit in in the spiritual scheme of things?

Instead of merely posting the results of that quiz that's making the rounds (which was 40% scientific, 40% reasoning, which classifies me as an Agnostic), i'd rather talk about about why i'm an agnostic.

I moved to agnosticism from atheism because i realized that atheism is an affirmation of the non-existence of something that i can't prove doesn't exist. Atheism also essentially derides the faith of others (which is something it shares with most religions), and i've spent the last 10 or so years trying to be less of a jerk.

That's a lie. I love being a jerk, and i clutch my head every day at some of the shit people will believe for the most idiotic reasons, excuses, pretenses, whatever.

No, no, see, that's completely unempathetic. I can't put myself in the shoes of others; i can only work with my own experiences. I shouldn't even have any contempt for the faith of others because that would make me contemptuous of my own past as a Catholic.

Wait now, i might have been a Catholic once in name, but (unless i've already rewritten my memories with my own idealized childhood) i can't recall ever truly believing in God, Jesus, etc. Eucharist was just a wafer. Confession never made me feel better. Attending Mass never gave me a fuzzy warm feeling inside. When i turned away from religion within a year of my Confirmation, i wasn't really rejecting anything i held. I was on the field, but i never played ball.

OK, now, i was going to talk about why i'm an agnostic. I don't think i've addressed that at all so far. Well, maybe i won't. Fuck it. What do you care, anyway? It doesn't make a difference in your life, eh? I'm not going to tell you that the only way to be saved is to let go of your puny faith and embrace the nothingness in every moment of every day, thus hugging yourself and keeping yourself warm.

Never mind that. I'm obsessed with the fact that religion and spirituality is a huge shadowplay. It's inane. God doesn't matter. The spiritual world doesn't matter. They're just metaphors. As that great humanist Ren Höek once said, "THEY'RE NOT REAL, NOT FLESH AND BLOOD LIKE WEEEEEE!" The only thing that truly matters is people, how we get along, how we move along into the future.

God matters. The spiritual world matters. They are woven into human nature and to dismiss them out of hand is folly. We cannot progress as a race, we cannot ascend, without détente between religions, between believers and non-believers.

Why are we wasting time on cultivating a lasting and rewarding relationship with God while we barely understand ourselves and each other? Wouldn't the latter be easier and more practical? Is that precisely why it doesn't happen? What the hell is so interesting about God, anyway? The cosmos is interesting. Life is interesting. The human race isn't ready to tackle a real relationship with God, were he to exist. Let's solve our real problems first.

Let's keep our eyes on the goal, though.

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Atheism also essentially derides the faith of others

no, obnoxious atheists do that. there are lots. i don't like those people any more than i like strident, prosletyzing religious people. of any faith or lack thereof.

i am, and have always been, an atheist. that means i don't believe in a higher power. that doesn't mean i have to feel disdain for those who do. i have a lot of respect for the people i know who are religious. they're smart, educated people, and i admire their faith. i envy it. i see the richness it brings to their lives, and the context it gives them in the world.

i don't hate religion. i just don't subscribe to it. it's not important to me. the only reason i care about the religious right is that they're trying to force their beliefs on me, and that's something i won't tolerate. it's the marketing of religion that offends me, the scare tactics these so-called "Christians" use to gain converts.

the transparent hypocrisy, dishonesty, and ambition of the people behind the whole evangelical movement is astounding. it makes me sick to think about what they're trying to do to this country. they want to drag us back in time, take away the rights of women, punish people for enjoying sex, and breed, breed, breed! MAKE.XTIANS.FAST.

that's what i deride. that's what i hate. not religion. not even Christianity. just hypocrisy. which is not, although there seems to be some confusion on the matter, a religion. dammit.

Well, it sounds more to me like you're an agnostic. But let's not quibble over labels. An atheist, someone who denies that someone else's god exists, is effectively deriding that person's faith.

Another problem is that hypocrisy is enshrined in the holy books of many religions. But that's orthogonal to the existence of God, which is what i was addressing.

There's a difference between denial and derision. Also, there are people whose religious faith incorporates all sorts of beliefs, many of which are extremely difficult to accommodate in any sensible worldview. I'm denying a pillar of many people's religious faith when I say that the universe is between 13 and 14 billion years old and people are descended from apes. Am I supposed to avoid saying that for the sake of détente?

There's a difference between denial and derision.

Logically, yes, but we're speaking about faith here. In a very basic sense, someone who isn't, say, a Muslim is through their belief implicitly saying that Allah is not God. Most Muslims are fine with that.

I'm denying a pillar of many people's religious faith when I say that the universe is between 13 and 14 billion years old and people are descended from apes. Am I supposed to avoid saying that for the sake of détente?

Not any more than they have to avoid saying that The Bible Is The Literal Truth Of God™.

It might be the case that by conflating denial and derision, i'm projecting. But i do think there's a kernel of truth in it.

why does this have to be adversarial? just because i picked one side of the line to stand on doesn't mean i think everyone on the other side is a jackass. you know, it's sort of like how you listen to Fripp, but i don't run around telling everyone you're a tasteless cretin.

are you deriding my faith when you tell me i can't be an atheist because i'm not a big enough asshole?

No, no, see, that's why i said that thing about "labels", and redefined "atheist" within the context of my article. I'm not gonna tell you that you can't call yourself an atheist even if i don't exactly agree with your use of it. I didn't intend what i said to you to be adversarial.

i didn't mean you were being adversarial. i just don't get why the question of whether there's a god or not needs to be adversarial. i have good friends who are very serious about their religion. they know i'm an atheist. i respect them. they respect me. we've even discussed the issue in-depth. we're still friends. people can believe completely opposite things and still respect each other and their beliefs. for instance, i keep my head outside of my ass. no, wait, that's a bad example. um...

at any rate, you can redefine atheism to mean "wears yellow pants on thursdays" if you want, but the rest of the world is going to keep on using it the way it always has. i don't believe in god, or the possibility of a god; that means i'm an atheist. that means i believe i'm right, not that i know, or that i'm claiming to know. people who believe in god don't know they're right, they believe. they call that "faith." i don't think it's fair to apply different standards to atheists than you would to religious people.

whether i believe the universe could have been created, intentionally or otherwise, by another intelligence is a completely separate matter; if such an intelligence were to exist, i'd call it/them... another intelligence. certainly not a supreme being (or beings). i also believe that one of these days we're going to figure out how to make a universe. and maybe we even will. and it still won't make us gods.

Well put. Yeah, like i mentioned earlier, the adversarial thing is my own problem, because when i was an atheist, i was adversarial, so i didn't have in my head a model of a non-adversarial atheist.

I don't know that "derision" is the right word. It implies actively doing something to tear down or lessen a person's faith, which atheists don't always do.

While we're talking about religion specifically here, I find almost any group of people who believe strongly in their lifestyle choice includes some who have to put down a contradictory lifestyle choice. For example, the childfree groups almost always have outspoken members who hate people with children. Or the current divide between liberal and conservatives in the country, who hate each other intensely. Not just dislike or disagree with, they hate with the passion of the KKK hatin' on darkies.

So it's no surprise that the same pattern happens with religious groups. You can't swing a cat without hitting a group of atheists who feel that those who believe in God (Allah, Mohammed, Jesus, etc.) are idiot sheep. That's derision, in my opinion. Not the simple disagreement of whether God exists or not.

Yep, i came to realize that after Samantha's comment. It also made me realize that i clearly am holding atheists in more contempt than i do your average theist, because with theists i feel i should respect their faith, but since atheists' faith isn't a matter of life, death, and afterlife, i feel comfortable scorning them. Which, hey, not cool. Once a zealot asshole, always a zealot asshole, that's what i say about Saul of Tarsus, but excuse me while i pick this beam out of my eye...

Yeah yeah, I didn't read the whole thread before posting, thbpt.

I hate threads like this because it makes me realize that I still haven't decided what I am spiritually. I'm not Christian and that's ALL I know. That's very little to work with.

Hey, it's a start. If you don't feel the need to pursue a spiritual path, you're probably OK.

where do i fit in in the spiritual scheme of things?

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